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Anonymous
@soapbox
02 Mar 2012 11:18AM
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Lisa Haugaard: Huffington Post:

Just a few steps south of the U.S.-Mexico border, p******** Calder�n unveiled a towering billboard last week wielding a message written in plain English: "No More Weapons!" Weighing over 3 tons, the billboard itself is made of seized firearms that have been chopped, melted and welded together. Visible from the United States, the call is clear: halt the southbound flow of guns that fuel violence in Mexico.

Arms trafficking over our southern border has provided deadly firepower to brutal criminal organizations, fueling a tidal wave of violence that has led to some 60,000 dead in five years. Many of the dead include police officers, like the five massacred in Acapulco in 2007 with weapons that were later traced to Carter's Country gun shop in Houston. During the billboard unveiling ceremony, p******** Calder�n directly appealed to the United States, saying, "Mexico needs your help to stop this terrible violence that we're suffering... the best way to do this is to stop the flow of automatic weapons into Mexico."

Unfortunately, it appears unlikely that Congress will enact meaningful measures to curb the flux of arms into Mexico anytime soon. Rep. Gerry Connelly (D-VA) has highlighted the failure of Congress to seriously address gun violence in Mexico, noting that the House Oversight Committee, which has held a string of hearings on the notoriously botched Operation Fast and Furious, has yet to hold even a single hearing to examine any of the three steps that many experts agree could actually reduce arms trafficking to Mexico: a federal law prohibiting the trafficking of firearms, stronger penalties for straw purchases, and the reinstatement of the assault weapons ban.

Rep. Connelly has a point. Amid the political fervor and pursuit of accountability related to Operation Fast and Furious, important questions surrounding the larger issue of arms trafficking to Mexico have been largely ignored. Here's what's missing:

For starters, it is critical to note that Operation Fast and Furious was a result--not the cause--of the staggering flow of arms into the hands of organized crime in Mexico. It's true that between 2009 and 2011 ATF agents allowed 2,000 weapons to be bought by straw-purchasers, in hopes of tracing those weapons to higher-ups in a cartel gun smuggling ring. Yet experts estimate that upwards of 2,000 guns are smuggled across the U.S. border into Mexico every day, whether the ATF is watching or not. A senior member of the Zetas drug cartel echoed U.S. law-enforcement findings last July, admitting that his cartel buys virtually all of their weapons from the United States.

How is this possible?

The simple answer is that for Mexican drug cartels, the United States is the easiest and cheapest place to purchase high-powered assault weapons, due to lax U.S. gun laws. According to Mexico's Secretary of the Interior Alejandro Poir�, assault weapons made up one-third of guns captured in Mexico back in 2005. Today, that number has grown to two-thirds, a dramatic rise that can be linked to the United States' failure to renew the assault weapons ban in 2004. Other commonly cited shortcomings that ease the path for arms traffickers include the ability to purchase firearms at gun shows with no background check or identification, weak penalties for straw purchasers, an absence of specific federal penalties for arms traffickers, and a continually underfunded ATF that has long suffered from the absence of a confirmed director.

At a congressional hearing on Fast and Furious earlier this year, one ATF agent noted that "there are stronger regulations on purchasing Sudafed than purchasing guns, and that penalties for gun trafficking are no more severe than those issued for minor traffic violations."

Perhaps from a partisan perspective in Congress, it makes sense to focus exclusively on finding out "who knew what" about Fast and Furious and "when they knew it." Indeed, the mismanaged tactics used in the investigation are troubling, and deserve scrutiny. But from across the border, Fast and Furious is not viewed as the lone enabler of the horrific levels of violence. From Mexico's perspective, weak U.S. gun policies are primarily responsible.

That's why a diverse civil society movement in Mexico initiated a petition urging p******** Obama to enact policies that would help stop the illegal flow of guns from the United States into Mexico. Some 35,000 people have signed the petition to the p********, including a broad coalition of faith, anti-gun violence, and human rights groups in the United States and Mexico.

One of the founders of Mexico's peace and justice movement, Javier Sicilia, the Mexican poet whose 24-year-old son was allegedly murdered by members of organized crime last March, has spearheaded a charge against his country's spiraling violence. Last October, Sicilia came to Washington, DC to meet with policymakers about gun trafficking from the United States to Mexico. During one speaking engagement, he addressed a hushed crowd saying, "I know the U.S. has a culture of arms... but behind each and every one of your weapons are our dead -- and that's a grave responsibility."

We couldn't agree more.

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1
Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 11:24AM

Operation Paperclip
Operation Cyclone
Operation Iraqi Freedom
1953 US intervention in Iran (overthrowing the DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader)
The attack on the USS Liberty
The attack in The Gulf Of Tonkin
Operation Fast & Furious
September 11th 2001

TO NAME A FEW..

Look these up if you want to learn about the LIES and corruption here today and in the past of your beautiful Country. Media wont touch it so you must educate yourself!

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 2:28PM

Mexico's problem is the drugs they grow, cultivate, package, & then dump inside the USA & other civilized countries and their children. Any clear thinking person knows this.

Mexico, clean up your drug problem & quit trying to blame everyone else! Capture and execute drug cartel members & kingpins & guess what....your weapons problem automatically goes away! Now, get to work!

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 2:52PM

How do you get rid of these drug lords and cartels when they receive thousands of weapons from the US Govy and get money laundered on their behalf by the Us govy. The problem isn't the fact they grow drugs, its the demand for the drugs here today in the country. If it ACTUALLY is the drug lords getting the goods across then our border and homeland security are a joke and how can we expect to do any better against terrorists? If it's the US govy doing their bidding then how are we any better than those 3rd world and banana republics around the world.

The US and nato forces have been documented in growing and protecting poppy fields in Afghanistan so don't be a fucking hypocrite; research before you comment idiot. What about the CIA plane that crashed transporting cocaine into the country?

Again research these topics before commenting like an uninformed person:
Operation Paperclip
Operation Cyclone
Operation Iraqi Freedom
1953 US intervention in Iran (overthrowing the DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader)
The attack on the USS Liberty
The attack in The Gulf Of Tonkin
Operation Fast & Furious & the war on drugs
September 11th 2001
federal reserve act & the income tax act
Geo-engineering and the PH levels all around the US and rest of world
Lowering fertility rates and skyrocketing cancer rates from our absorption of Fluoride and BPA in EVERYTHING we use everyday, including currency, plastic, printer ink, clothing and food/water.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 2:58PM

Hey dipshit, your question was answered in the post above. As long as you people refuse to accept responsibility for the drug sewer that Mexico has become, the more likely it'll get worse. Wise up!

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 3:45PM

You're ignoring the fact that Operation fast and furious is being investigated into the counts of gunrunning and laundering money for drug cartels. If it's coming out now what stopped them 20 30 years ago. I look at the facts, you blame other people. Im accepting the responsibility of the actions of my government, and they should be punished for theirs. Stop avoiding the real blame game here "dipshit". Like I said above, before you post and blame a developing country look at the following:

Operation Paperclip
Operation Cyclone
Operation Iraqi Freedom
1953 US intervention in Iran (overthrowing the DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader)
The attack on the USS Liberty
The attack in The Gulf Of Tonkin
Operation Fast & Furious & the war on drugs
September 11th 2001
federal reserve act & the income tax act
Geo-engineering and the PH levels all around the US and rest of world
Lowering fertility rates and skyrocketing cancer rates from our absorption of Fluoride and BPA in EVERYTHING we use everyday, including currency, plastic, printer ink, clothing and food/water.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 3:46PM

Mexico's problem is the drugs they grow, cultivate, package, & then dump inside the USA & other civilized countries and their children. Any clear thinking person knows this.

Mexico, clean up your drug problem & quit trying to blame everyone else! Capture and execute drug cartel members & kingpins & guess what....your weapons problem automatically goes away!

Keep on posting the same bullshit propaganda, keep on getting the same answer, moron.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 4:06PM

blah blah blah nothing is our fault. How bad does the world have to get before you realize that we are more than just a little part of this problem. Countries that do not have as strict of drug laws as we do don't have nearly the problems we do, and do not waste as much money as us either. The debt is growing and the dollar is devaluing and you just blame everyone else for your problems.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 6:45PM

Truth hurts, huh Wetback? LOL!!

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 4:32PM

The other guy who replied has it right to a point. How is what I said propaganda? The list I told you to educate yourself on is comprised of Government documents and congressional hearings? Yeah TOTAL propaganda eh? Why don't you read up a little on each of those operations and come back and tell me what's propaganda?

Operation Paperclip
Operation Cyclone
1953 US intervention in Iran (overthrowing the DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader)
The attack on the USS Liberty
The attack in The Gulf Of Tonkin
And the WMD lie that led us into Iraq.


My friend I am not bashing our society or the civilians that awake and can question what is put in front of our faces. The list I posted above is not propaganda, it's history and we are doomed to repeat it again if we don't look at the mistakes we have made before. I am saying if we continue to sleep through this and focus on non important things in life we are going to go down a dark road that just leads us to lose more and more freedoms and rights.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 4:33PM

And that's not even going into the congressional hearings about the Operation fast and furious scandal the media is hiding from our eyes. Just like they forgot all about the 2.3 billion dollars Corzine stole. Keep eating up their lies or educate yourself

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 12:56PM

Read below moron. Americans are quick to forget our past yet for some reason we keep bringing up the past history of other countries. We are no better than any other living human beings on this planet and I hate to break that to you; if ANYTHING we've unfortunately made more mistakes and committed more crimes than most (Google USA war crimes)read and educate yourself.

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 3:45PM

America has spent more treasure and spilled more blood on rescue missions, freedom fighting, & saving other countries & the people in them then any other country in the history of mankind.

You need to get over your idiotic America hating & learn some history, Einstein.

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06 Mar 2012 12:22AM

A rightful deed (peacekeeping, liberation) does not take away from a wrongful acts of war crimes. Sorry, that's the RULE OF LAW.

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Anonymous
06 Mar 2012 5:52PM

LOL, war crimes? By who, Iraq? Iran? China? North Korea? You seriously need to wise up.

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07 Mar 2012 12:26AM

Canicatt� massacre, Biscari massacre, Operation Teardrop,No Gun Ri Massacre, My Lai Massacre, Gulf of Tonkin incident, USS Liberty insident not to mention going into Iraq and Afghanistan are unconstitutional as have been 90% of wars since WWII. What about Eric Holder's speech two days ago about the "justifiability" of killing Americans abroad, as well as pretty much any one else because the "world is a battlefield in the war on terror, is that really the kind of rule you want to set precedent for? If this is fine today, then what are we to expect in the future? I believe in America but following the rule of law is a must to stray from becoming exactly what we kill and invade countries for doing.

Please just read on those crimes alone and it'll be easy for you too see that we've abandoned the diplomatic and democratic approach to wars as we keep up with these preemptive attacks. If we want to go to war, fine by me - I serve to this day, all I ask of the government is to declare these wars! I don't want to see any more innocent people die.

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Anonymous
07 Mar 2012 8:35PM

Gulf of Tonkin?...war crime? LMAO!! Go back to smoking your medical marijuana you mis-informed Libtard!

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Zagg
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07 Mar 2012 11:33AM

Mexico's drug problem? Mexico produces and transports drugs to the US. It's the US's drug problem. And why is it a problem? Because the US gov't has decided that it's citizens can't legally use recreational drugs. The solution? Legalize drugs. Get the gov't off peoples' backs. Let corporations take over the production and trade and get the gangs out of the drug business.

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07 Mar 2012 8:36PM

The stock & worn out answer from Zagg: "It's America's Fault". You never cease to be predictable & boring Zagg.

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TS20
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07 Mar 2012 10:33PM

out of the number of things we have argued over Zagg, this is nothing but truth. Countries with less strict drinking and drug ages boast to North America about having lower drug abuse rates. Not to mention the criminalization of marijuana in the 1920's was nothing short of racist and money driven. The criminalization destroyed the hemp industry and boomed the pulp and paper industry all the while the media propagandized medical fallacies in order to gain support of legislation. This criminalization also creates the "need" for their to be drug lords and cartels, remove the commodity and erase the supplier.

So in other words Zagg wasn't using the "it's America's fault" at all, in actuality its the fault of a failed "War on Drugs" that has cost us billions and billions of dollars as well as a failed Foreign Policy with Mexico to truly eliminate Cartels from existence. Ciggarettes will kill an estimated 66 million people (that probably being a conservative number) in the next 25 years and smoking is scientifically proven to be radioactive. Alcohol is no better either yet all recreational drugs, who kill less people a year then pharmaceutical drugs and legal controlled substances are "immoral" and evil.

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07 Mar 2012 10:48PM

Pharmaceutical pills have also become synonymous with skittles with our youth. Big Pharma's subscription quota is destroying our youth and we are too busy focusing on recreational drugs that most people - even if it was legal, such as crack or heroin - wouldn't even touch the fucking stuff. Whether it's legalization or decriminalization, this prohibition has failed over the last 40 so years. The US has the most populated jails in the world and thousands of Americans are being incarcerated for possession crimes and are wasting our resources and money.

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Anonymous
08 Mar 2012 4:29PM

Hey you worthless America haters...

all Mexico has to do is execute drug kingpins and their underlings & guess what? Drug growing, distribution, & sales goes bye-bye! See how simple that is, you simpleton idiots??

Now that this solution has been posted for the dozenth time...keep on with your factless America bashing...it just makes you look like complete ignoramuses.

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Anonymous
08 Mar 2012 5:33PM

Typing your response show you have done little to no research on the contributing factors to illicit drug demands. Countries all around the world who have less strict or no drug laws at all boast about having lower drug abuse rates than North America. They do not need the government in their living room in order to live a free live. The only negative effect of using drugs are to yourself and no one else. Wasting money we don't have on prosecuting recreational drug users is counter productive in terms of rescuing the economy.

Where do you think all this money comes from? How are we going to pay it back?

I think you should spend a little less time looking at porn and maybe a little more time reading a book.

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Anonymous
08 Mar 2012 6:40PM

Oh yeah right...you should be allowed to do whatever illicit act you want, right stoner? Blah, blah, blah....idiotic & tiresome.

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08 Mar 2012 10:48PM

If you cant make a life saving decision but rely on the government to do it for you, you are no better than a slave. Drugs are not good, but neither is alcohol or cigarettes, which combined will kill over 70 million people in the next 30 years. SUPERHOLOCAUST if you will. But the gov says fine drink up and smoke up, but yet a drug with zero attributed deaths (marijuana), and others (coke, heroin, speed) that 99% of the population would never touch are illegal. If they were decriminalized they wouldn't be made in someones basement with cleaning supplies and the real hardcore druggies wouldn't be all over the streets in North America overdosing daily.

We waste money we don't have on people who choose to use recreational drugs, I am not one of them, but I see a huge problem in housing these people in prisons while real criminals are tied up in the judicial system and are free to roam

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TS20
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08 Mar 2012 10:56PM

PERSONALLY I believe if we are to do a prohibition of drugs we should do it right, NO ALCOHOL, NO CIGARETTES, NO ANYTHING. But this double standard is mind boggling. Prohibition does not and never will work, it only creates an illicit demand. We're losing here Especially considering the trillions of dollars we're wasting, all the while drug cartels are growing and their demand is getting higher.

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09 Mar 2012 9:33PM

"If you cant make a life saving decision but rely on the government to do it for you, you are no better than a slave."

Excellent, excellent post! Thanks for posting it. After I read it, I just shook my head and laughed at the ignorance & hatred of the OP. He's so brainwashed into trying to blame the USA for the corrupt "leadership" and the homicidal gangs in Mexcio, that his country is being lead into oblivion by drug cartels while he ignorantly screams anti-American slogans as if that'll help. What a fool.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 2:39PM

Mexicans make great burritos!

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 2:53PM

this is indisputable.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 6:12PM

It's actually quite disputable since Burritos aren't Mexican. The closest thing in Mexico to a burrito is a northern Mexican dish called a burra which most Mexicans have never heard of since it's a really regional dish and even it isn't actually a burrito it's just the closest dish available.

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 1:05PM

LOL you have a point; Taco Bell is NOT Mexican food.

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Anonymous
02 Mar 2012 11:35PM

The United States is full of druggies....they love their pills, and all other hard drugs...lol...even their kids are using drugs now..hahahaha...what a great culture! what a great country! i hope i didnt fuck up your high....lol.

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 3:46PM

What country do you live in? Wanna know so that we can cut off the billions in US foriegn aid we're wasting on you.

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Anonymous
05 Mar 2012 4:57AM

Israel

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Anonymous
05 Mar 2012 4:03PM

You DO realize, don't you, that Israel wouldn't exist without the United States (along with 1/2 the other countries in the world)? Not to mention the weapons the USA gives you to defend yourself.

This is why the USA needs to give the middle finger to the rest of the world, stop all foreign aid, and let these idiots fend for themeselves for once.

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Anonymous
07 Mar 2012 9:24PM

You're right.. before the USA implodes economically from helping other countries "exists".

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08 Mar 2012 4:30PM

Absolutely..so cut off ALL foreign aid NOW!!! Then listen to 'em whine!

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Anonymous
08 Mar 2012 10:53PM

Still wouldn't dig us out of this 16 trillion dollar HOLE. The economy is dead, the bankers are just padding their bank accounts until the entire ship sinks.

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Anonymous
10 Mar 2012 3:59AM

US foreign aid is a tiny part of the annual budget, and totally insignificant when compared to military spending. The US is broke because no one is prepared to pay the tax rates needed to balance the budget. Americans want to have their cake AND eat it... and a slice of everyone else's cake that they can get their greedy hands on!

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10 Mar 2012 2:04PM

Foreign aid and military spending go hand in hand. Building a one billion dollar embassy in Iraq was definitely not military spending, not even foreign aid - just plain and simple wasted money.

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 12:06AM

The article's author could at least get her terminology right: You can't buy assault rifles or automatic firearms in the US. At least, the overwhelming majority of us can't and there certainly aren't any for sale at gun shows for purchase by Joe Schmoe with no ID the way the article implies.

If the 2004 ban was re-enacted, nothing would change. Wasn't that on high-cap mags, folding stocks and shit like that? That's just icing on the cake. You can kill someone with any firearm, and if an AR-15 with a drum mag isn't available, a plain old ten-rounder works just fine too. Or a hunting rifle. Or a fucking 22. Don't Israeli snipers use modified Ruger 10/22s?

Mexicans buy guns in the US because it's convenient. We can afford to manufacture shit so we do, and we're right next door. Like Walmart. Unless we tighten down our borders, the only other way to stop the influx of weapons would be to band firearms altogether. Fuck that. It's our right. Mexico can shove it up their ass.

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 12:53PM

Operation Fast and Furious stated that out of the entire lot of automatic weapons that went missing from US control; 95% of those are now in the hands of the cartels. SO it isn't the main population, they are unarmed and victims of the cartels. Watch the fucking hearings.

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03 Mar 2012 12:59PM

They aren't talking about gun sales to regular Mexican civilians they're talking about gun running and money laundering from the US government to these cartels. Big terminology difference there. WATCH THE HEARINGS, Eric Holder is dumbfounded whenever they ask him questions, homeland security is failing us, and it's them who are protecting us from terrorists, WHO THEY ALSO FUCKING FUNDED DURING OPERATION CYCLONE. Read a goddamned book for once before you comment.

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 3:24PM

You realize homeland security never protected us from any one right? It's not like they are suddenly failing there was never a need for them in the first place.

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03 Mar 2012 3:28PM

That is truly indisputable LOL
Just sayin' that's where all our money is going; that and the bankers personal accounts.

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04 Mar 2012 3:48PM

If Obama gets re-elected Fast & Furious will be his & Eric Holder's undoing... he'll be impeached.

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03 Mar 2012 3:26PM

You can actually go to pretty much any gun show and pick up fully automatic assault rifles with no ID or anything. Gun shows are full of conspiracy nutjobs who think it's every ones God given right to carry automatic weapons and you act like them and say you don't want your ID on record in case big brother ever tries to take away your guns they'll completely agree and sell to you with no ID at all.

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Anonymous
03 Mar 2012 3:30PM

We are not talking about the government taking people's guns away atm. We're talking about a potential gun running project while laundering money for drug cartels. Don't get distracted. Operation Fast and Furious was formulated to blame the second amendment for a gun problem, but the problem is the government control and distribution of weapons which end up killing our police and border services agents.

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 1:59AM

Bullshit I regularly go to gun shows. Fully automatic "assault" rifles are never sold. They are highly regulated and have been long before the passage of Clinton's Assault Rifle ban.

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 1:43AM

Cities that liberalize gun laws are the ones that have an automatic drop in crime, becuase then criminals aren't the only ones with guns. But facts don't matter to the anti-gun, leftist nutjobs. Since this moron keeps repeating the same shit over & over like the brainwashed Liberal wetback he is, allow me:

Mexico's problem is the drugs they grow, cultivate, package, & then dump inside the USA & other civilized countries and their children. Any clear thinking person knows this.

Mexico, clean up your drug problem & quit trying to blame everyone else! Capture and execute drug cartel members & kingpins & guess what....your weapons problem automatically goes away! Now, get to work!

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04 Mar 2012 10:31AM

The initial marijuana criminalization in the 1920's was based on medical propaganda that has since been disputed and a high racism agenda against Mexico. Mexico only had one great commodity at the time which was HEMP. It was criminalized to save the every growing pulp and paper industry, because any informed person on US-Mexican relations dating back to the 1900's shows there was no gun problem nor a drug problem in Mexico until we passed the legislation banned it on false pretenses that are up kept today. I would also like to add that Hemp is much cheaper for making goods we use forested trees so they saw an opportunity to defeat hemp and industrialize timber and make their money off it. It's always been about the money, the drug growing and cultivation on the Mexican side is an OUTCOME of the laws. You honestly don't know much about the last 100 years if you think it's the fact that they grow it it the main problem. We've obviously been in bed with the Cartels for much longer than the last 8 months and now it's all starting to come out. Read a fucking book and watch the cspan hearings about OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS. How can you debate if you're not willing to look the evidence up?

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 10:38AM

However, I do agree with you on gun laws and their affect on mitigating crime. People who have guns, and who are properly educated can protect themselves and their property. These anti gun nuts were using OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS as a means to blame the second amendment and remove guns and/or ammo from Arizona, just like they're doing in NY, LA and NJ now.

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Anonymous
04 Mar 2012 4:35PM

How would you go about explaining that every country where firearms are illegal has a lower violent crime rate then where firearms are legal?

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04 Mar 2012 5:39PM

How would you go about explaining that what you just posted is absolute bullshit & untrue?

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04 Mar 2012 11:37PM

I think it's funny you adverted from answering any and every one of my points but bring up some bullshit rebuttal saying gun cause crimes; untrained people who posses illegal firearms are FAR more likely to commit a crime then someone who has gone through the necessary screening and licensing procedures. The legal owners are not the problem, the problem lies with gov corroboration with Cartels in gun running and money laundering - which if you haven't noticed is ILLEGAL - all to blame the second amendment and take away the right to own firearms and ammo. These rights are being attacked in LA, NY, NJ and many other states and cities. OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS.. look it up before you comment, only takes a few hours to get the just of what's potentially going on - and that my friend, is some scary fucking shit.

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05 Mar 2012 2:41AM

I think its funny how you try to propagate your bullshit beliefs as if they're fact without any proof or sources of what you say whatsoever. Another brainwashed leftist who can't prove one thing he says.

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06 Mar 2012 12:06AM

If you watched the hearings and saw the bs Holder constantly spews then you would see all the evidence you would need? Have you even looked up Fast and Furious? Did you hear Holder TODAY on how its justifiable to kill American citizens abroad if they are considered "enemy combatants" without due process. What kind of world would you like to live in sir? One where the gov can kill citizens it views as a threat and one that launders money and gun runs, REGARDLESS of the "cause" or one that follows the constitution and obeys our rights? I've made my choice.

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06 Mar 2012 12:19AM

But if you insist what would you like me to prove?

The racial rhetoric behind the criminalization of marijuana and destruction of the hemp industry while the media propagated medical farces on behalf of passing legislation?

The crime rates versus gun laws in countries with gun abiding citizens such as USA, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, France, Russia, against those in others - to prove that educated gun enthusiasts are less likely to commit crime then gang members or cartels who get weapons illegally?

The accusations against the US government for gun running and money laundering on behalf of the Mexican Cartels within the premise of Operation Fast and Furious?

How about how Eric Holder said TODAY that every country in the world is a battlefield in the war on terror and that the US can justify killing American citizens, or citizens of other origins, without due process, for ties related to terror groups. LOL if I remember correctly, operation cyclone shows the entire US GOVERNMENT had ties to "terrorist"..er.. i mean "freedom fighters" from 1979 to 1990 when they funded them with more than 5 billion dollars LOL

I've done my research, that's how I formed my views; not the other way around. Get back to me I would love to help point you in the right direction.

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08 Mar 2012 2:13AM

Mexico's problem is the drugs they grow, cultivate, package, & then dump inside the USA & other civilized countries and their children. Any clear thinking person knows this.

Mexico, clean up your drug problem & quit trying to blame everyone else! Capture and execute drug cartel members & kingpins & guess what....your weapons problem automatically goes away!

Nothing you make up about America in an effort to place false blame changes these facts, and you can't seem to address it...so maybe you need to do a little more "research", Einstein. LOL

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08 Mar 2012 11:25AM

Nothing I've said in this thread is "made up" to seem like it's the USA's fault. You copy and paste the same dinosaur answer saying that it's Mexico's fault. You have not shown one ounce of proof to CLEAR USA from suspicion, let alone blame it outright on another country. Pharmaceutical drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol kill millions of people a year yet recreational drugs are considered evil and immoral for some reason. The most addicting drugs are LEGAL and they KILL you - yet no one has ever died from marijuana use alone. If heroin and crack were decriminalized I sure as hell wouldn't do it, and millions of americans wouldn't even think of trying it because we knoe the effects but since you're just a follower in terms of the way you think, or there lack of, you would probably start shooting up just because you thought it was cool.

How can you ignore:
Operation fast and Furious
The documented GROWING and PROTECTION of opium in Afghanistan

These are two instances in the last 5 years of government involvement in the Drug trade - all the while they waste billions of OUR dollars on "The War on Drugs".

America�s first marijuana law was enacted at Jamestown Colony, Virginia in 1619. It was a law �ordering� all farmers to grow Indian hempseed. There were several other �must grow� laws over the next 200 years (you could be jailed for not growing hemp during times of shortage in Virginia between 1763 and 1767), and during most of that time, hemp was legal tender (you could even pay your taxes with hemp � try that today!) Hemp was such a critical crop for a number of purposes (including essential war requirements � rope, etc.) that the government went out of its way to encourage growth.

Again, racism was part of the charge against marijuana, as newspapers in 1934 editorialized: �Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men�s shadows and look at a white woman twice.�

By the 1930s, the story had changed. Dr. A. E. Fossier wrote in the 1931 New Orleans Medical and Surgical Journal: �Under the influence of hashish those fanatics would madly rush at their enemies, and ruthlessly massacre every one within their grasp.� Within a very short time, marijuana started being linked to violent behavior.

In 1930, a new division in the Treasury Department was established � the Federal Bureau of Narcotics � and Harry J. Anslinger was named director who took over immediately drew upon the themes of racism and violence to draw national attention to the problem he wanted to create. He also promoted and frequently read from �Gore Files� � wild reefer-madness-style exploitation tales of ax murderers on marijuana and sex and� Negroes. Here are some quotes that have been widely attributed to Anslinger and his Gore Files:

�There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others.�

��the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.�

�Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.�

�Reefer makes darkies think they�re as good as white men.�

�Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing�

�You smoke a joint and you�re likely to kill your brother.�

�Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.�

Harry Anslinger got some additional help from William Randolf Hearst, owner of a huge chain of newspapers. Hearst had lots of reasons to help. First, he hated Mexicans. Second, he had invested heavily in the timber industry to support his newspaper chain and didn�t want to see the development of hemp paper in competition. Third, he had lost 800,000 acres of timberland to Pancho Villa, so he hated Mexicans. Fourth, telling lurid lies about Mexicans (and the devil marijuana weed causing violence) sold newspapers, making him rich.

Some samples from the San Francisco Examiner:

�Marihuana makes fiends of boys in thirty days � Hashish goads users to bloodlust.�

�By the tons it is coming into this country � the deadly, dreadful poison that racks and tears not only the body, but the very heart and soul of every human being who once becomes a slave to it in any of its cruel and devastating forms�. Marihuana is a short cut to the insane asylum. Smoke marihuana cigarettes for a month and what was once your brain will be nothing but a storehouse of horrid specters. Hasheesh makes a murderer who kills for the love of killing out of the mildest mannered man who ever laughed at the idea that any habit could ever get him�.�

And other nationwide columns�

�Users of marijuana become STIMULATED as they inhale the drug and are LIKELY TO DO ANYTHING. Most crimes of violence in this section, especially in country districts are laid to users of that drug.�

�Was it marijuana, the new Mexican drug, that nerved the murderous arm of Clara Phillips when she hammered out her victim�s life in Los Angeles?� THREE-FOURTHS OF THE CRIMES of violence in this country today are committed by DOPE SLAVES � that is a matter of cold record.�

Hearst and Anslinger were then supported by Dupont chemical company and various pharmaceutical companies in the effort to outlaw cannabis. Dupont had patented nylon, and wanted hemp removed as competition. The pharmaceutical companies could neither identify nor standardize cannabis dosages, and besides, with cannabis, folks could grow their own medicine and not have to purchase it from large companies.

Yet no one has ever died from marijuana use - 36 million people will die from the radioactivity of cigarettes in the next 25 years yet no one demonizes that or alcohol. It's time we stopped being hypocritical and giving all the power to Drug Cartels.

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08 Mar 2012 11:33AM

Souce: Any history book outside of Government schools.

Look up all the uses to for hemp and you'll see that the materials we use today are more expensive to grow, industrialize and use for example cotton/timber vs. hemp when making nylon, paper, clothes, and just about 150,000 other things.

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08 Mar 2012 11:44AM

I'm willing to bet the idiot who keeps saying the exact same dinosaur (extinct) come back:

"Mexico's problem is the drugs they grow, cultivate, package, & then dump inside the USA & other civilized countries and their children. Any clear thinking person knows this.

Mexico, clean up your drug problem & quit trying to blame everyone else! Capture and execute drug cartel members & kingpins & guess what....your weapons problem automatically goes away!"

Will not come back with any refutable evidence to discredit any of my statements. I have nothing against you but your view on the issue regarding the US involvement in drug trade, criminalization, and cartels are extremely screwed up because you don't understand the fact that our racist laws against drugs and demand for these drugs nonetheless create a DEMAND for cartels - and when you have GOVERNMENT HEARINGS about how the US is potentially involved in GUN RUNNING AND MONEY LAUNDERING for the Mexican drug lords - you have a serious fucking problem. Not to mention it has been documented - on multiple occurrences - that the US army is aiding in the GROWING & PROTECTION of opium fields in Afghanistan. What about the CIA plane that crashed transporting drugs to Denver with over 2,000 tonnes of COCAINE a few years ago?

Our country is on the verge of economic suicide and we're spending Trillions of dollars on the War on drugs and the War on Terror. Seems kind of hypocritical considering all the work they've done with drugs lords and terrorists (See Operation Cyclone) is truly disgusting.

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Anonymous
08 Mar 2012 11:54AM

Sorry if you're unable to read that much but it gives the just of the racism behind the original prohibition of recreational drugs. Come back with more then the same worn out answer next time if you hope on convincing uneducated people on this subject about the REAL problem. Cigarettes, pharmaceutical drugs, alcohol; hell even TYLENOL and CAFFEINE kill more people a year then marijuana does. How does that not taint the prohibition of recreational drugs when considering that most people wouldn't even try them if they were legal - and if they were to try marijuana there is a ZERO per cent chance they will die from that alone. Should be a open closed case for removing the prohibition but pulp and paper industries, big pharmacy industry, and just about every other industry that could compete with hemp is all for the current laws, and those people have the ears of legislation. JUST TO MAKE SOME FUCKING MONEY.

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08 Mar 2012 4:30PM

Timothy A. Hickman gives a detailed account of some of the ethic factors in the Harrison Act of 1914 in "The Secret Leprosy of Modern Days: Narcotic Addiction and Cultural Crisis in the United States, 1870-1920" (University of Massachusetts Press, 2007).

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05 Mar 2012 12:04AM

To the moron that keeps saying to capture and kill the drug cartels, you do realize they are trying to do that right? The mexican MILITARY has been fighting the cartels, thats how dangerous they have become. They are losing. Many of the members of the drug cartels are former special forces guys. Not to mention that about 96% of all the guns in mexico say "Made in the USA" on them. The simple fact is we should have gone to war in mexico and not iraq, or prolonged the war of pointlessness in afganistan for so long.

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05 Mar 2012 2:43AM

Trying to blame the US for your government in Mexico being on the take and allowing drug cartels is really a laugh. Until you people take responsiblity for yourselves and your country, your damned to live in the sewer you've created.... moron.

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05 Mar 2012 4:00AM

The only reason the cartels even moved to Mexico is because the US government and US military pushed them out of Colombia so now they're right on our border, well done guys.

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05 Mar 2012 4:06PM

Feel free to not provide any proof whatsoever to your ranting & blathering. We know its difficult for you since none exists. Moron.

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05 Mar 2012 4:53PM

Sorry I've provided proof in several threads and it always gets the response that it's a biased hatchet job source so doesn't count despite the fact that the opposing side has posted no sources which is obvious trolling so until other people post sources I'll keep doing exactly what you're doing and just stating things without posting any evidence or support for my statements. The main difference in our statements will always remain that mine are true and yours are not.

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05 Mar 2012 8:12PM

^More blathering, more bullshit, no proof^ Quit wasting our time.

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Anonymous
05 Mar 2012 9:01PM

Unsourced you've said nothing still.

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06 Mar 2012 5:59PM

What's unsourced? YOU'RE the one making accusations! You're the one who hasn't proved one thing about the USA that you've said!

How about providing proof and sources instead of excues about the sewer that Mexicans have turned their own country into. Take some responsibility instead of trying to blame the very entity that's kept you afloat through all of your government corruption...the USA.

See what happens when you try to take someone else's argument like "provide sources" & use it for your own idiotic purposes? It makes YOU look like the ass. Wise up!

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07 Mar 2012 5:17AM

Unsourced so you've still said nothing.

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07 Mar 2012 8:41PM

^^Can't even tell us what is supposedly "unsourced". You Libtards are serously brainwashed and delusional. LOL Instead of parroting something you've heard, try READING previous posts first, and then reply with something cogent (look it up in your Funk & Wagnalls, Einstein).

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Anonymous
12 Mar 2012 12:46AM

So can we have a 5 story sign that says in Spanish "NO MORE Illeagles" facing back the outer direction????

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12 Mar 2012 10:27AM

Ill eagles?

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12 Mar 2012 11:56AM

Who's going to work at burger king, be a full time nanny, build decks and put down fertilizer for next to nothing, clean septic tanks, work for nothing on a farm? It sure as hell isn't going to be you or any other Americans. I'm not going to do it and everyone I ever as says they wouldn't do it so who would take all those illegal jobs?

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12 Mar 2012 12:17PM

Says who? Native-born Americans used to do all those jobs. The operative words in your post are "next to nothing". Native-born Americans struggled for a century to not have to work for "next to nothing". At that point, the investor-class began to do the manufacturing and back-office work in low-wage Asian countries and to import Mexicans and other Latin Americans to do the service work that can't be exported. Native-born Americans would certainly do those jobs again, just not for "next to nothing". At least not yet.

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12 Mar 2012 3:51PM

This actually isn't entirely true. US used to do some of those jobs but farm labor has almost always been done by immigrants and the easiest source of immigrants is Mexico. There are farmers who used to do their own labor or have enough children to have no pay child laborers do the work but the majority of the harvesting season has always been done by Mexicans because they're willing to come work on a farm for a few weeks to months as seasonal labor for 14-16 hour days of hard manual labor with low pay, few breaks, and no benefits. Farmers have tried hiring US workers to do this jobs as it's universally accepted that they either physically can't do them or don't want to. Mexicans are used to working long hours in blistering heat US workers are not.

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12 Mar 2012 4:43PM

Farm labor has not always been done by immigrants or Mexicans. Frank Tobias Higbie's "Indispensable Outcasts: Hobo Workers and Community in the American Midwest, 1880�1930" (University of Illinois Press, 2003) has an excellent discussion of itinerant farm labor around the turn of the last century. You seem to take it for granted that farm labor has to be done with "low pay, few breaks, and no benefits". Employers certainly want "low pay, few breaks, and no benefits", but that doesn't mean that they should get them. And while it might be "universally accepted" that whites can't or won't do this work, it's nevertheless incorrect. One of my younger brothers made the mistake of marrying into a family of white itinerant farm laborers, and he did that work for several years. Agribusiness gets away with exploiting Mexican farm workers because we allow them to do so, not because it's somehow historically inevitable.

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